Consulting Spotlight

Michael Bernzweig (00:02.289)

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I'd like to welcome everyone to this week's edition of Consulting Spotlight. I'm your host, Michael Bernzweig, and this week we have joining us Alex Yaroslavsky. He's with Conflict Yes and has years of experience transforming workplace disputes into collaborative solutions. So with that, Alex, welcome to the Consulting Spotlight.

Alex Yaro (00:28.002)
Thank you Michael, it's great to be here.

Michael Bernzweig (00:29.987)
Yeah, absolutely. And I can see from some of the pre show questions that have already come in, there's, there's a lot of conflict out there in a lot of a lot of parts of our lives, whether it be personal, business, or relationships, or all of the above, which are all relationships. So with that, I was hoping maybe you could share with us a little bit about your journey getting to where you are.

and a little bit of what you and your team at Conflict Yes help clients with on a day-to-day basis.

Alex Yaro (01:05.422)
Sure, I'd be happy to. So I was born in the Soviet Union, you know, and came to the US when I was 10 years old and immediately faced some unintended conflict. I didn't speak the language. I, you know, had to make friends. So, I became kind of a student of psychology and of, and of people and of conflict, naturally. And I was always curious about how come some people get along and other people don't. And then that eventually, as I grew up, morphed into my curiosity about negotiation.

How do some people get a better deal on a car and others don't? And then as I studied it more in school, that morphed into mediation. And so I actually am a certified mediator and I helped people like neighbors and landlords and parents with kids resolve conflict. And then eventually that led me to a career. I should tell you that I was also an IT consultant at that time, right after grad school.

Michael Bernzweig (02:01.703)
Sure.

Alex Yaro (02:02.722)
But then eventually that led me to coaching. And so now I work with technology folks and others and coach them in how to be effective leaders.

Michael Bernzweig (02:13.251)
I love it, I love it. Well, I think, you know, it's obviously not an innate skill that we're born with, and I think a lot of people need to nurture and learn how to resolve conflicts as they come at them, I think, along the way. And I think it's something that I hope you will share with us that can be learned along the way. So where do you get started when you're first working with a client in terms of...

helping them along the path or the journey towards resolving all of these different conflicts.

Alex Yaro (02:50.433)
If first I want to meet my client where they are and ask them about what is their version of the situation. Everyone is a protagonist in their play of life, right? We all experienced life through our own set of eyes, our own perspective. And so I want to know with each individual person, what is, what is happening? And so they tell me their story and that could be a story of I'm just trying to, sell some product and I'm not getting the cooperation from.

the operations people that I need and my client is calling me complaining and I want to build a relationship with a client, things like that. Or it could be something else, but just to use that as an example. So I want to understand from that salesperson's perspective, what is the issue? And they will then tell me that, you know, that it might be that they're promising a certain level of service and the folks who are delivering that level of service can't deliver it or the client isn't happy and they're frustrated because

you know, in their case, they might make their living from commissions and from the relationship they have with the client.

Michael Bernzweig (03:54.845)
Sure, no, that makes a lot of sense.

Alex Yaro (03:56.577)
Yeah, so once I do that, as they tell me the story, I listen for things that may suggest to me where they contribute to the problem.

Michael Bernzweig (04:08.541)
Okay.

Alex Yaro (04:09.4)
So as an example, this is all hypothetical. It could be that this person as a salesperson in their desire to land the deal, to service the client.

leave the client believing that something might happen when that person hasn't confirmed it. Maybe they hoped that that would happen. Maybe they think it's reasonable that that would happen. Maybe the client said, and I want to make sure that all of my questions are answered within 24 hours, let's say.

Michael Bernzweig (04:39.175)
So over promising, I guess might be.

Alex Yaro (04:41.967)
So it could be active over promising where someone actually says, yes, yes, of course, or it could be not actually saying that we have not been able to do that. We can do it in 36 hours, but 24 is our goal, something like that. And so then they create maybe the possibility of that misunderstanding that they're paying the price for later. Just as an example.

Michael Bernzweig (04:50.075)
Yeah.

Michael Bernzweig (04:53.351)
Yeah.

Michael Bernzweig (05:01.873)
Got it. So really setting the right foundation. So at a higher level, maybe even taking a step back, can you categorize conflict into different categories and different types of areas where conflict may arise? it business, personal, relationships? Are there different areas in our lives where conflict may arise? Are there different categories of conflicts? Or am I?

Alex Yaro (05:32.643)
Yeah. Yeah. So I think broadly speaking, the way I think of it, there are three. There is the logical rational conflict, which is conflict around pricing, conflict around contracting, things like that. That's one area. Another area, and they're all sometimes are coalescent to, you know, it's within one person. The other area is relationship and trust. So we might have a difference in opinion about what the right price is.

but we can trust each other and know that the other person is a person of honor and then their word is bond, et cetera, or not, you know? And then the third area of conflict, and this is the one that people often don't pay attention to, is what I call nature and nurture. So if I come from a background where I learned certain ways of being in conflict from my parents, or...

Perhaps my brain is wired in such a way that I don't understand when someone is telling me no politely and so I assume it's a yes until they overtly say no. It could be lots of these kinds of things. Conflict could arise there because I am misinterpreting the situation or I'm interpreting it differently than the other person is interpreting.

Michael Bernzweig (06:52.208)
Right, so a good example would be the builder that neglected to tell us that for a piece of property we were building, we wanted to have sprinklers in the ground, we also had to drill a well.

Alex Yaro (07:06.926)
So that's an example of that, right? That's a very good example of that. And that could be, so there could be in this model, three particular reasons why that might come to be. Reason one, the builder is not experienced enough and just did not know that that is a piece of information that was relevant. That's one. The other is the builder doesn't have the kind of relationship with you.

Michael Bernzweig (07:08.453)
Yeah.

Michael Bernzweig (07:28.573)
Right.

Alex Yaro (07:37.162)
where they think that it is important for them to mention it, since you didn't ask, maybe they didn't have to tell you. Right? So that's another way you would say that the bill is not trustworthy. That's how you would say it. Right? If, that happens to you.

Michael Bernzweig (07:43.121)
Right. Absolutely.

Yeah. So there's two sides to every conflict, right? Yeah.

Alex Yaro (07:52.897)
At least, and then the third piece is it might be that the builder just didn't think to communicate that they thought it was obvious. Rather than like they have the experience. It just never occurred to them that you wouldn't ask about the well. If you wanted a sprinkler.

Michael Bernzweig (08:01.969)
Right.

Michael Bernzweig (08:10.717)
So for any of the business people or individuals listening to this podcast saying to themself, well, this Alex guy seems like he knows what he's talking about, but is he the individual that I'm gonna bring into my negotiation to handle the negotiation? Or is he the individual and his team that are gonna empower me with the information that I need to be able to become a better conflict resolutionist, I guess, let me.

Let me say that. So where do you fit into the picture for individuals and businesses?

Alex Yaro (08:44.815)
Yeah, I can do either of those. There are clients who retain me to coach them. And so then I would work with the individual, I would empower them and I would help them walk through the conflict and they would then negotiate it on their own. And one of the things that I have developed is an ability to see and imagine what the other person's perspective might be, even though I'm not speaking with that other person.

Michael Bernzweig (09:10.449)
bright.

Alex Yaro (09:11.788)
So that's the individual one-on-one coaching. Sometimes clients bring me in to help clean up where I function as a facilitator and as a mediator. And I speak with both the person, for example, who finds me and then the other person, and they have to convince them to hire me as well. And then I, I I mediate, go back and forth, I interview both, and then I help them figure out how to have a solution that ends their.

Michael Bernzweig (09:28.08)
Okay.

Michael Bernzweig (09:37.534)
I love it, I love it. you you've been doing this for years, as it sounds. Over the years, I'm sure you've had some situations more challenging than others, but does anything stand out in your mind as to the more interesting or exciting conflict resolution that even surprised you, having done what you're doing over all these years?

Alex Yaro (10:05.806)
Yeah, what surprised me, I'll tell you, that the lower the stakes, the higher the conflict typically. Yeah. And I would have thought it would be the opposite, right? That the higher the stakes, the more people will be dug in. But no, because when the stakes are high, both people feel the pain and both people want the conflict to be over. So they're often highly motivated to end the conflict as long as they can save face and there's a way out.

Michael Bernzweig (10:11.695)
Interesting, okay.

Right?

Michael Bernzweig (10:25.98)
Right.

Michael Bernzweig (10:32.134)
I love it. Okay.

Alex Yaro (10:33.614)
When the conflict is between volunteer groups or people who give of their time, where money typically or the time value of money is not a factor, people get very entrenched.

Michael Bernzweig (10:46.908)
Right. It's harder. Yeah. So, so as far as like keys to resolution, are there certain elements that you find play into the role of resolving conflict in more cases than not? Are there certain important details that if you're trying to resolve a conflict or important across the board?

Alex Yaro (11:14.762)
Yeah, there are a couple of them. Certainly facts are important. So sometimes people are under different assumptions about what happened when and what led up to something. They only see their part of the story. And just a piece of conflict resolution is making sure that we understand the timeline of events. We fill in any blanks and we at least identify where we disagree about the chain of events. So we know what we're arguing about.

Michael Bernzweig (11:24.049)
Sure.

Michael Bernzweig (11:42.887)
So starting from the point of agreeing or understanding what actually happened, because there might be a big difference of opinion in just that foundational element. Yeah.

Alex Yaro (11:50.22)
what happened.

Alex Yaro (11:56.673)
It often is, and often with very sophisticated clients. People just have their timeline, the things that they're privy to when conflicts started to affect them. And they assume that that is when the timeline began.

But different people enter the situation at different phases with different assumptions and different priorities. And then we, just as human brains, we filter out things that aren't relevant. So what is relevant to us may not be relevant to someone else.

Michael Bernzweig (12:29.351)
So it's become an increasingly global business environment. Does culture come into this at all?

Alex Yaro (12:38.815)
Often, sometimes in the way that I think you're describing, which is when people from different nations and different parts of the planet do business together, but often culture plays a different part when people from the same neighborhood, but maybe from a different culture act with each other or different parents or different values. And so I had one example where I was mediating a case and

Michael Bernzweig (12:56.583)
sure

Alex Yaro (13:06.594)
the person who was, who was one of the parties did not want to pay a certain bill that it seemed to me, the bill was certainly reasonable. can argue maybe about, dollars here or there, but the sum of it, substance of it was beyond doubt. It seemed to me. And yet this person absolutely refused to pay. And so I asked, I drew a triangle and I.

and I showed that these are the sides of the angles of the triangle. So there are three reasons in my mind why you might not want to pay. And I said this to the person. One reason is the reason I hear you describe, which is that you are a highly principled person and you don't want to pay on principle. Okay. Another reason is I said, because you don't have the money. And so this is face saving. So you would pay if you could, you just don't have the money. And so you're kind of making, I didn't say it in this way, but

Michael Bernzweig (14:05.755)
Yeah.

Alex Yaro (14:05.838)
You're kind of making up the principle to save yourself the face for the fact that you're not, you're not able to afford to pay. Or the third one is you don't think you, you have to pay because it's a, a, the kind of world where you think that you can outlast this person in court. And so therefore you just may be, you may be able to get away with it.

And, or it could be anything in the middle. So I gave this person these three things. Where are you?

and the person put their pen squarely in the principled, highly principled. Okay? What's the principle?

Money is something you fight over.

That's the principle. And then I said, and where did you learn this principle? And he leaned to me and said, my father taught me that.

Michael Bernzweig (14:51.237)
Interesting.

Alex Yaro (15:01.39)
So there's a situation where there was no resolution because what he was really doing is, it's not really wasn't about the money itself. wasn't about the dollars in the account. It was about what do you do in case of a dispute?

Michael Bernzweig (15:16.869)
I got you. So it was a learned, you know, response is really what was. So, yeah.

Alex Yaro (15:22.764)
Yeah, yeah, and that's definitely a culture clash between that person and the other person who did the work and just wanted to get paid.

Michael Bernzweig (15:30.235)
So the other detail and obviously things have evolved quite a bit in our world, we have a lot of us working from home. Remote workplaces, remote work, all of that. Has that changed the whole area of dispute in terms of what you're seeing today versus pre-pandemic?

Alex Yaro (15:58.819)
I think it made the resolution possibility a lot easier.

Michael Bernzweig (16:02.736)
Interesting, okay.

Alex Yaro (16:04.556)
Because before this remote world with tools like Teams, Zoom, et cetera, the only way to get people together was to do it physically in the same space. So most of the time people have to travel. Sometimes as conference technology came on board, there were places where you could go like a conference room where there was a video screen, but those things were largely left to large organizations.

because that technology was very expensive.

Michael Bernzweig (16:34.439)
Right.

Alex Yaro (16:38.167)
So any kind of a resolution required essentially an in-person meeting. And as a mediator, that means I had to get, let's say, three rooms, one common room and two other breakout rooms where people could go and I could shuttle back and forth. But now it's all available on Zoom. And so people don't have to travel, we just schedule a time. I create the breakout rooms virtually on Zoom and I'm able to do this.

Michael Bernzweig (16:53.735)
Sure.

Alex Yaro (17:05.16)
much more easily and much faster than and much much much less expensively than if I had to rent a room and someone has to pay for that etc. Yeah.

Michael Bernzweig (17:12.859)
Right, more efficient course of resolution. So day in and day out, can you give me an example of the types of clients that you're working with? what is the makeup of your clientele?

Alex Yaro (17:28.748)
Yeah. Most of my corporate clients use me for one-on-one coaching, although I have done conflict. I've served as a mediator in a conflict between two people, like two senior executives with teams, and also between a manager and employee situation where people weren't getting along.

That's the bulk of my work. And then sometimes people hire me to help professional organizations like a doctor's office where there are several physicians who are not getting along. And what is the team dynamic? Because they also lead groups of PAs and nurses and admin folks. So these doctors are leaders in their firm, but they don't quite know how to lead. They know how to practice medicine.

Michael Bernzweig (18:11.709)
Right.

Michael Bernzweig (18:15.333)
Right, exactly. That's their area of subject matter expertise is, you know, medical. Got it. Very, very skilled.

Alex Yaro (18:22.35)
Yeah, it's their expertise. Yeah, so doctors, lawyers, professional organizations like that.

Michael Bernzweig (18:26.733)
So are there certain types of executives or certain types of situations where you feel like you're adding the most value in terms of helping clients achieve their goals most efficiently?

Alex Yaro (18:43.695)
And I don't think it matters based on the organization. I think it matters based on the readiness of the client to change. So a client who is motivated to do something differently is a favorite client of mine because they're a pleasure to work with because they are pulling information from me. The challenge comes in, and this happens more on the corporate side, when the client is being voluntold to use me.

Michael Bernzweig (18:50.663)
Okay.

Michael Bernzweig (19:00.466)
Right.

Michael Bernzweig (19:10.631)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Yaro (19:12.396)
And that typically happens when someone is ineffective in some way and their inability to communicate is a blocker to their career progression. Or they do something where HR says, if that happens again, you'll be in trouble.

Michael Bernzweig (19:29.447)
Yeah. So, yeah.

Alex Yaro (19:30.766)
So then they bring me in and then my job is to gain the trust of the client who may be reluctant and see my presence sort of as punishment. And so I call that jokingly coaching jail. And so we definitely want to make sure that if the client feels that and they feel comfortable with me and then they have to make the mental switch to want to do it. because if they don't want to do it, then I cannot be effective.

Michael Bernzweig (19:42.023)
Yeah.

Michael Bernzweig (19:56.04)
Got it, okay. And I would think at the executive level within an organization, probably much of the conflict comes from not having the right process and procedure in place within their organization that's leading to conflict, or is it many times the actual individual in that executive position and the way they're handling

the different conflicting situations that are coming up because there's no question that running a business, running an organization, conflict happens. And especially as you have a lot of different vendors, a lot of different employees, a lot of different divisions, a lot of different dynamics involved. So do you find one area is more foundational in terms of where these challenges come from?

Alex Yaro (20:53.231)
think it's a combination of factors. One of them, of course, is the system in which people operate, and that's what you mean by processes. So if the processes are such that they create or they contribute to conflict, that certainly adds a layer to it. Just as an example, if the process is that before I spend any money from my budget,

I have to get your signature to approve that, but you don't understand my business. You're not close enough to it. You're busy with having to approve many expenses. And then you wind up asking questions that are maybe relevant to one group, but you're asking me and it's not so relevant to me. And then, then you and I perceive each other as being in conflict. Whereas it's really the structural setup that that's causing that. So that's one example, but it also.

Michael Bernzweig (21:48.647)
Got it.

Alex Yaro (21:51.727)
Sometimes what exacerbates it is that if I get upset and then my way of being upset is to blame you for the problem, then you become upset, then you blame me for the problem and that hurts our relationship. So it's a combination of the structure and then the personalities that we are when we interact in that context.

Michael Bernzweig (22:14.457)
Interesting. And I think, you know, it's important to, you know, for any organization, obviously they have both internal and external stakeholders and, you know, making sure that the communication is consistent on all ends. And I think probably the one dynamic, you know, when you think about it, customers may come, customers may go, things may change, but the communication with the customers needs to be.

consistent from everyone within the organization. And I think today we're blessed by having all kinds of foundational databases and information that can be organized within the company so that.

Customers external to the company no matter what channel they're approaching the company through whether it's chat or text or email or phone calls or whatever or getting a consistent answer from everybody within the organization to all of the questions that they're asking and I think that's that's important in terms of minimizing conflict, but

Do you have some strategies that you find for businesses in terms of setting up the right process for minimizing conflicts at the outset before they even happen with external stakeholders that you've found, maybe a short-bulleted list of best practices?

Alex Yaro (23:41.423)
I think when organizations set up processes, generally speaking, they should ask many more questions about the impact of the process than they do. What often happens is people who are closest to their issue, the process is set up because something goes wrong, something's not working. So someone says, we need to control this, we need to standardize it. And so we're going to implement this process where...

Alex has to get Michael's approval for signatures as an example.

Sometimes Alex doesn't ask. Sometimes even Michael doesn't ask about what is the impact. So what does it mean to you that another 20 signatures are going to be needed from you each day? And what does it mean to me that my process is going to be slowed down by five days before you get to my signature? Just as an example, or my request. And so I don't have a chance to have any input. I might say, folks, this is a little bit of a problem because I can't...

then speak to my customers that way, because then they're waiting and someone else is going to get the job. And so what I'm making this up, but what might be helpful is maybe we have a certain threshold where above something, then you would have to get involved and below something that I can just do it myself to minimize work for you and speed my process. But if that question is an ask, if we don't have that conversation, then the simple process without exceptions starts and then

Everyone is frustrated in it. So my suggestion would be to ask more questions about the impact so that people have a chance to offer their opinions.

Michael Bernzweig (25:24.519)
Makes a lot of sense. what would you say, like, obviously you've worked at so many different levels and so many different negotiations and so many different resolutions over the years. If you were to kind of bullet point the biggest mistakes that you see managers making when handling team conflicts, what do you say?

Alex Yaro (25:45.416)
Mm-hmm. I think managers assume, not just managers, but people in general, that what is obvious to them is obvious to everyone.

Michael Bernzweig (25:51.708)
Ahem.

Alex Yaro (25:59.353)
So they don't go through the step of asking questions and checking about people's perceptions.

they act as if whatever their thoughts are, there's a transmitter that people are able to receive and understand their best intentions. And most people actually have pretty good intentions, but they're solving a problem from their perspective. And the way they usually communicate that solution does not come across effectively to people who are reading that communication or hearing that idea.

And when they do, then they react, sometimes overreact because they feel frustrated and they push back and that escalates conflict.

And so if the manager or the leader did more research in crafting the message and understanding the needs and then dealing with follow-up questions, I think that would help a lot in resolving a lot of conflicts that I wind up seeing and having to clean up.

Michael Bernzweig (27:07.877)
I love it. And I'm going to wrap up by asking you by and far the number one question that came in from the audience prior to this episode. And if you haven't already created a document as a lead magnet for your email list that includes answers to this, you better get started. So the number one question that was coming in was, what practical advice would you give to someone

Alex Yaro (27:28.214)
Hmm.

Michael Bernzweig (27:37.725)
who's currently facing a workplace conflict right now.

Alex Yaro (27:45.507)
First, I would say, say nothing and type nothing while you're upset. There are four pillars of conflict resolution that I typically suggest to my clients and I'll offer them now. And I call it the four C's. The first C is care. You have to put yourself in a place, mental place, where you care about the other person with whom you have a conflict.

Michael Bernzweig (27:54.525)
you

Alex Yaro (28:13.454)
And that means quieting your amygdala, quieting the angry part of the brain that wants to fight or flee. And do nothing until that part of the brain is quieted down. And a lot of people escalate conflict because they type an email or a text message from the heart, they say, which is really from a place of defensiveness. So that's the first thing. The second C is clarity. And this is around...

thinking through what are you solving for? What do you feel blocked by? What is the problem that you're experiencing? What is the nature of the conflict from your perspective?

So most people would say the conflict is the other person. The reason they're upset is because the other person is causing them the problem. But that's not how I see it. The other person is doing something and that something is blocking you from doing whatever you want. You have to figure out what that is because then you have to be able to explain it to the other person.

And so I advise my clients to say nothing and do nothing until they have these two things figured out. Then comes the third C, which is curiosity, where they go to the other person and say, here's my problem. Here's what I saw happen. Here's how it affected me. And now I'm curious to hear what's happening on your side of this. What were you solving for? How come you did what you did? And then there's a, there's a conversation that happens so that people can understand what's going on.

And then the, finally, the fourth C is choice, which is that I do not want to make the other person feel controlled or stymied. What I want to do is say something like, Michael, I'm just trying to go from here to here. I'm just trying to get my customers. I'm trying to make my quota. I'm trying to make sure that my boss is happy. Whatever, whatever it is. I'm trying to avoid a lawsuit. All those kinds of things. How can you do what you do and help me do that without it being a problem for you?

Alex Yaro (30:18.36)
So I want to put the control in your, in over to you so that you can participate in helping me craft a solution as opposed to saying, Michael, you could never do this and you should never do that. Cause that would make you feel defensive.

Michael Bernzweig (30:33.691)
makes a lot sense. I love it. I love it. Well, for I really appreciate the deep dive on conflict resolution today. I think that is definitely an episode that will help many, many in our communities. So I really appreciate that. And obviously in the show notes, we're going to leave a link to anybody that would like to reach out to you and explore some of the opportunities to resolve conflict.

Alex Yaro (30:33.87)
So those are the four C's that I offer my clients.

Michael Bernzweig (31:02.839)
in any area of their lives in terms of getting to the other side. But thank you for joining us on the Consulting Spotlight today.

Alex Yaro (31:12.227)
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.