Consulting Spotlight

Michael Bernzweig (00:02.319)
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I'd like to welcome everyone to this week's edition of the Consulting Spotlight. I'm your host, Michael Bernzweig, over at Software Oasis, located just outside of Boston. And joining us from Nap Labs, we have Derek Hales. He's the founder and located out in Arizona. His organization is the...

behind data-driven mattress testing and reviews. So I was hoping you can shed a little bit of light for any of our audience that may not be familiar with NAP Labs, a little bit about your journey and a little bit about what you do out there.

Derek (00:46.734)
Sure, absolutely. our journey kind of began really by accident. In 2014, my wife and I got married. We were sleeping on my old Interspring mattress at the time, which we were ready to upgrade pretty quick. So we did the whole kind of in-store experience going in store, trying beds. And we found something we liked. The problem was they were all $4,000, $5,000, $6,000. And we were pretty frugal people, still are pretty frugal. And more than that, we had no money to speak of.

We ended up taking a chance on these, kind the new online mattresses that were kind of just getting started at the time. We ordered one, it was okay, not a great fit. We returned it, ordered another one, it was a little bit better. And then I kind of ended this sort of mattress shopping experience with kind of all these experiences and some notes and actual testing two different mattresses. And I kind of put all this up into a quick website, a little weekend hobby project, really.

We did the website, we did some reviews, some comparisons, and the site just really blew up. Within just a few months, it was just crushing it. It had really replaced my full-time income at the time. we just had people continue to ask us to review more beds, test more beds. So we kept testing, kept reviewing, and here we are a little more than a decade later having tested, I think we're up to like,

420 mattresses now, tested to date.

Michael Bernzweig (02:14.833)
Wow, that's crazy. What a huge need in the market space and amazing how no one had actually done this before at this scale.

Derek (02:28.01)
Yeah, you know, when we were sort of trying to, you know, find information on beds during our shopping process, initially, there was just not not much out there. What was out there was very sort of, you know, amateurish and just sort of, you know, one off random reviews posted on forums and here and there. And certainly it didn't have the sort of, you know, the structure and the objectivity that my mind really craves when when trying to make, you know, indecision that's, you know, more than even a few hundred dollars. I would like to put some sort of quantifiable

data behind it. And so in sort of the process of, you know, starting this sort of journey into testing and reviewing and writing a Paris and the best of lists, and I really just wanted to create the resource that I wanted and that I would want today.

Michael Bernzweig (03:12.879)
Yeah, and you know, at the end of the day, it's not like buying a pair of sneakers. I mean, it's something you're gonna live with for years. I don't know what the stats are behind mattresses, but I'm sure you do. How long does someone typically buy a mattress for?

Derek (03:30.45)
I think the US average is something like five to six years. Higher quality mattresses are gonna last more like eight to 10 years, but many of these lower quality mattresses stuff that's in that cheap sorta, let's say three, four, $500 bracket, those can last longer, but usually those are the mattresses that are being replaced every three, four, five years.

Michael Bernzweig (03:34.502)
Right.

Michael Bernzweig (03:51.079)
Now out of curiosity I mean sneakers you know that's something that you know you find the pair of sneakers you like you grab them most guys I'm not sure myself I don't know if you're the same way but a lot of my friends are you know they'll find a pair of sneakers they like and that's their sneakers you know as long as they're still available they keep going back for the same thing is it similar with mattresses or is it a very unique purchase every time?

Derek (04:19.502)
I think it can be similar. I think maybe the challenge with mattresses is your times between purchases are often very long. Even if it's short, it's still five or six years. And for many people, it's like an eight to 10, 12 year purchase. So even if you had a mattress that you liked initially, that mattress in all likelihood isn't available. Or if that is available still, the materials may have changed, the design may have slightly changed. It could be better.

Michael Bernzweig (04:29.862)
Right.

Michael Bernzweig (04:46.726)
Right, me and the-

Derek (04:48.334)
in some ways, but it could also be creating a different feel. And so it's one of those things that I think is really tough to always get like, all right, I'm always going to buy this bed because I know it's going to be available. Because the reality is it's not likely to be the exact same bed by the time you're ready to make a purchase years down the road.

Michael Bernzweig (05:06.609)
So when you started this as a business, it was really to fulfill a need that you had personally. It wasn't just an idea for a business. Had you had other entrepreneurial endeavors before this, or was this your first foray into the online world?

Derek (05:27.022)
So growing up, always had some little side hustle as a kid trying to make money, mowing lawns, picking up leaves, that sort of thing. And then in college, I had launched basically a blog that talked all about a particular video game at the time. And I sold an ebook that was all about how to earn currency in that video game. And I sold that. So I was able to have sort

Michael Bernzweig (05:31.697)
Sure.

Derek (05:54.054)
a little business and sort of cut my teeth in the world of content and website building and SEO. And I was able to learn some of those skills in college and ultimately pay my way through school doing that. I definitely had a little bit of experience, looking back, I clearly had a lot to learn to really turn this into something that could be sustainable and built on really strong foundation.

Michael Bernzweig (06:20.231)
I love it. Yeah, and you know, it's interesting. mean, I even look, you know, I started on the internet in 1998. So that's super early days. And, you know, we've seen a ton of change since then. But when you started NAPLAB, I mean, I think that was a whole other world from where we're at today. There were a lot of, you know, differences in the way people searched, a lot of differences in...

a lot of the search engines and the algorithms and social media was just really coming into its own. Now, I mean, we've got a huge shift in terms of AI as a big transition. But when you started NAPLAB, what was the foundation that you used for the website?

Derek (07:10.712)
So we've always built on WordPress. And so that's been sort of the foundation. That's what I had initially taught myself in college. And I was building my websites in college. And then I was just, it made perfect sense. And even today, think WordPress still remains a really strong platform, despite some of the drama and the craziness going on with the founder and others in the industry. It's still a robust platform.

Michael Bernzweig (07:21.095)
you

Michael Bernzweig (07:29.415)
Sure.

Michael Bernzweig (07:35.013)
Yeah.

Derek (07:38.902)
As long as nothing crazy, too crazy happens on the founder front there, it seemingly is going to continue to be, I think, a great platform to build on. The community there, the supports there, the premium plugins are there, free plugins. There's just so much in the ecosystem.

Michael Bernzweig (07:54.319)
Yeah, very robust platform. it's like a of clay. can make it into whatever you want to make it into and conserve. Yeah. Any, any type of, option. So for you, was there something that was like a surprise, you know, from when you launched the business over that first year in terms of, you know, was it what you expected or, or did it take on a life of its own right away or?

Derek (08:00.706)
Absolutely.

Derek (08:22.136)
Well, certainly it wasn't what I expected. My initial aspirations were, I just wanted a little hobby project to do over a weekend or two to sort of remind myself how to build websites. After college, I had let sort of my entrepreneurial businesses sort of just trail off and I stopped working on them. I went to work for a large digital marketing agency and so.

Michael Bernzweig (08:34.599)
Sure.

Derek (08:46.706)
I spent four years there and when you're doing enterprise SEO for Fortune 100 type clients, it's interesting work, but it's also, it's a lot of, create a document, I create recommendations, I hand those off to their development team and they take it from there. so the actual building and execution, those just aren't skills that you generally need working at an agency. And so I had felt like I had really lost those. so this sort of weekend probably was just to remind myself, all right, well,

How do I build? How do I set up a domain? How do I, you know, do everything that's required to actually build a website? Cause I didn't want to totally lose those skills. And so the initial, you know, launch was just a fun project. And so the fact that, you know, within a few months, it was already making a substantial amount of money. And I'm starting to ask myself, God, this could, this could be a real business. So I think the, does the answer your question? The surprise was that it became a business at all. and then one that was, you know,

Michael Bernzweig (09:28.039)
Right.

Derek (09:43.724)
wildly successful and I was having more fun and doing more interesting work and felt like it was work that was actually having a real positive impact on society compared to what I was doing at the agency. And so it was personally rewarding and also financially rewarding as well.

Michael Bernzweig (10:01.637)
And I would have to imagine, you know, having started in the corporate world like yourself, you know, a lot of things do get compartmentalized, you know. Every different portion of the organization works on something different and you may not be involved, like you said, in the final end result or even have any input, even though you clearly see all the data right there in front of you and you know in your heart what the right way to go is.

So probably a lot of control I brought back to you in terms of what you were doing. And I can only imagine in the early days, know, think to my wife and, if I brought home a bunch of mattresses and said this is what I'm doing, I can only imagine the look on her face. How was that in the early days? Was that a point of contention or was it at the point where money started coming in, it was okay?

Derek (10:56.896)
It's kind of like boiling a frog, you know, I didn't just show up with you know, 15 beds all at once the apartment was just, you know, one and then two and then three. So yeah, my wife was initially very hesitant, wasn't super in favor of me leaving my stable job to become a mattress tester. But, but by the time we got you know, you know, six, 12 months into it, she had

Michael Bernzweig (11:04.922)
Yep.

Michael Bernzweig (11:15.247)
Right, right, that's another stuff of them, right?

Derek (11:24.226)
you know, she was on board, know, she was saying, okay, this is going to be be a real thing. And he's committed and everything. So but yeah, our first, you know, apartment as a married couple was, you know, one bedroom apartment, something like 930 square feet. By the time we were ready to move out of that, I had 17 king size mattresses in that apartment on a third story walk up. It was it was packed the 60 % of my living room was just a bookcase of mattresses from end to end we had

Michael Bernzweig (11:48.932)
I love it.

Derek (11:53.142)
one little corner left where we still had the TV and the couch where we could sit, but the hallway, the kitchen, every room, we had mattresses stacked, I think up to four high on the actual bed frame, just because we had no room elsewhere. we, yeah. We filled that one bedroom apartment to the absolute maximum and then,

Michael Bernzweig (11:56.357)
That's awesome.

Michael Bernzweig (12:09.863)
That's right within code. So don't worry about it. You know, that's how every business starts.

Derek (12:20.108)
I guess about a year after we had launched the website, we were able to then get our first house together and we had a little bit more space, but it was only a few years later that we had done the same thing there, filled to the maximum.

Michael Bernzweig (12:34.949)
Now, was NAPLAB the original domain name that you launched with or did you transition at one point?

Derek (12:41.166)
So my original business name was Sleepopolis. So that was our original website that we launched in 2014. I sold that one in 2017 and then we were able to get Nap Lab off the ground in 2021.

Michael Bernzweig (12:53.351)
I love it, I love it. So really an interesting journey getting to where you are today. So, you know, obviously doing it all over the second time, you probably were at the point where you knew exactly what you did and did not want to do. Were there some different strategies that you used when you launched the second time around?

Derek (13:17.33)
I think certainly knowing what works and what doesn't work, know, I think when you're in in any type of business where you're creating anything creatively, there is this sort of natural evolution and progression of, know, just sort of the quality and the form and the excellence of whatever you're creating. And at least for me, I look back at anything that I've created really more than about six months back, but especially 12 months back, I hate everything that I've previously done because

It seems like it's just like this little, you know, slow improvement, but by the time you get six, 12, 18 months down the road, it is a huge number of things that we are doing, you know, bigger and better with, with better efficiency and better quality and just everything about the piece of content, be it contextual or image or video is, is better and improved. you know, exactly. So having years of mistake making.

Michael Bernzweig (14:07.525)
Yeah, it's an iterative process, absolutely.

Derek (14:13.568)
up to that point, by the time we launched NapLab, I had a really good idea in my head, like, this is what this is gonna be, this is what it's gonna look like, we're gonna do things differently this way to, you know, just create something that is more robust. And so the biggest change really was the data-driven aspect of the review. So in the earlier days, the reviews, it had some data points, but they were still largely subjective. And I wanted to really flip that on its head so there would still be some subjectivity, which I think is always relevant in any sort of...

know, piece of review content, but especially we wanted to hit with as much objective, quantifiable data as possible. Take these things about mattresses that feel very subjective, very sort of nuanced and really distill them down to numbers so that then we can say, this is better than this or this mattress has.

Michael Bernzweig (15:01.991)
and wait.

Derek (15:07.182)
you know, 15 % less motion transfer than this. And you can see the numbers and you can see the wave of energy. And it's not me just saying that has lower motion transfer. There are numbers, there are trends, there are clear data averages that we can compare back to and make really informed recommendations using that data.

Michael Bernzweig (15:27.441)
So it sounds like the second time around, you were able to start with the end point in mind. You knew exactly where you were heading, exactly how to get there without having to go through that whole iterative process to get there. And you knew how to do it better, you just had to get it done.

Derek (15:43.104)
Yeah, we were certainly much, closer. You know, we still made substantial changes. I think we're we started with our, you know, scoring system 1.0. We're now on scoring system 1.2. And so we try to keep all of the reviews at the same system so that they're easily comparable. And as we've sort of, you know, gotten further and further off the ground, we can see, OK, well, this is a better way to analyze this data or this is a better way to score this data so that we are

properly creating the right sort of scores and assessment for mattresses by categories, essentially how they sort of fall on the curve, essentially.

Michael Bernzweig (16:22.599)
So was data and analytics and all of that part of your formal training or was it something you grew into or are other people on the team really deep diving into data and analytics? Because it sounds like a really important component.

Derek (16:38.548)
at certainly not a part of my formal training. I had a few statistics type classes in college where I got a business degree, but nothing major there. I think I had the of the ideas for how this comes together from a sort of scoring and testing perspective, but the real data genius on our team is my wife. She has a master's in mathematics and education, and she is truly

incredible when it comes to making sense of our data and allowing us to essentially build tools and resources that give us a level of insight into the data that we previously didn't have, but perhaps most importantly, allow us to create content that is better, create content more efficiently, and create just, again, a level of assessment that would be impossible without sort of this suite of back-end tools that she's built for us.

Michael Bernzweig (17:35.813)
You know what they say, behind every successful guy is a strong woman. And here we are in Valentine's Day. She's going to be happy to have heard this episode where you actually brought straight out to the forefront the genius behind the data. So that is really neat and really nice to hear.

Derek (17:45.358)
You

Derek (17:55.342)
Absolutely, yeah, she really is incredible. The things that she has built, that continues to build and refined, it's one of those things where it's taken us sort of like years to come up with enough imagination to realize that some of these things are possible. And some of these, we had technical limitations before that wouldn't have allowed us to do some of the things that we're doing now. But as we brought new...

know, pieces of technology or services or software into sort of the full of the business. or we just, you know, are, are, are better equipped mentally to sort of imagine different ways that we can use the data, different ways that we can, you know, create tools that can help sort of the broader team that we work with be more efficient, create things that are better and cooler and more interesting. it's been, definitely a slow growth, but, one where we've, you know, in the same way that, you know,

on the creative side that we've improved our reviews and content. On the data side, it has slowly stepped up along with us.

Michael Bernzweig (18:59.175)
So if you were to look at all of the traffic sources, because obviously traffic is at the end of the day the make or break detail for any online retailer or any online site or review site in terms of what you can do. How have your traffic sources changed from when you launched until today? Are they more diversified, less diversified?

Where do they, where do they come from?

Derek (19:29.89)
They are, I would say, less diversified today. And I think that's just a pattern of launch, at least in my experience with this site. When we launched, we had less traffic. And so the diversity was stronger because we were doing a lot of referral traffic from certain forums or social media. Reddit specifically has always been really big for us. Of course, organic and organic social as well.

and direct are big as well. As we've grown, it's been, I think, really two sort of main streams that have pulled ahead. Organic SEO, traffic is, of course, the big one. We're just now a larger site that is respected and trusted by search engines. So we get a substantial volume of traffic from Google and other search engines. And then, too, just the NapLab brand has grown as well. And we have a really strong level of awareness.

People remember the name, they remember the colors, they remember my face, they remember our insane quantity of data. And it sticks in people's minds. So we do a huge volume of just direct load traffic. People just typing naplab.com into a browser. And then, of course, people searching for Naplab on search engines as well.

Michael Bernzweig (20:50.479)
I love it. Yeah, and it's important. know, there's obviously if you tune into a lot of the SEO world and everything that you hear, you know, you hear all of the different, you know, good, bad and ugly stories over the last several years of all these transitions that we've had. But have you seen much of that with NAPLAB or not so much?

Derek (21:13.088)
NAPLAB has been a tremendous beneficiary to sort of every major sort of organic algorithm shake up. so we've had a few weeks where it dipped a little bit before returning to course. outside of some small stuff like that, it's been pretty smooth sailing on that front end. I hope that is reflective of what we're doing. I think that the way we've built the site,

Michael Bernzweig (21:26.449)
Sure.

Derek (21:41.934)
tries to create something that really just isn't out there and create a level of review that people like, that they read, that they want to share, that they want to come back to. And so, so far we've been very fortunate in that we haven't had any major downturns when it comes to organic.

Michael Bernzweig (22:04.325)
Yeah, and it sounds like you have absolutely charted your own course, which is so important. I mean, I think you see so many organizations and copycat ideas and everything out there. But I think at the end of the day, doing something unique, if everybody's going left, you need to go right. I think that's the reality of it. And you just need to do your own thing and not look at the competition, not look at anyone that's out there and just kind of.

set your course. think that's a big part of getting to where you want to get to. Now, as far as you had mentioned some of the different important factors that individuals are looking at when they're trying to choose between different mattress options, if you were to kind of bullet point the biggest details are important to consumers in choosing a mattress, what are they?

Derek (23:02.894)
I would say number one, firmness. Number two, price. Number three, materials. Those are the big three. so when it comes to firmness, that one's pretty straightforward. We all generally have a pretty good idea of if we want a soft, medium, or firm. And if you don't know, then you need medium. Something like 87 % of sleepers out there are comfortable in a medium or medium firm mattress. So it works for the vast majority of sleep positions and the vast majority of body weights and body types. So firmness is definitely a big one.

Of course, price as well. know, there are just some mattresses that are just not going to be available at a certain price and including different mattress types and materials. So definitely, you know, spending as much money as you can to get a high quality bed. But at the same time, you don't need to spend, you know, three, four, $5,000 in most cases to get a mattress that's going to work for you. Based on my testing, I would say that the sweet spot is, you know, let's say $1,500 to $2,000 for a queen size mattress.

After that, you really start to see diminished returns pick up pretty dramatically. You're just sort of getting less and less. And by the time you're at the 3K mark for a queen, diminishing returns is just plummeting. So there are very few mattresses on the market that are worth more than $3,000. At least based on my testing and my experience. the third thing is just, know, mattress sort of type materials. And this kind of comes back to feel really. And do you...

like the feel of latex? Do you like the feel of memory foam? Or maybe you just don't know what you like, what type you need, which is around 50 % of people. If you're in that bucket, going with something that is sort of even like a hybrid mattress that uses layers of foam on top of coils, creates more balanced feel. So I would say those are really the big three things to consider.

Michael Bernzweig (24:52.879)
Now, for individuals that are in the mattress market, I guess, or the market to buy a mattress, you're ready for your next mattress, how are they using the site? Are they going to the site, kind of zeroing in on what they might want to get? And then what do they do after that?

Derek (25:12.846)
Yeah, I think most people arrive at the site having done a search for a particular brand model. They're looking for a review on X mattress, or they are looking for a comparison between two mattresses, or they've done a search for a best of list. Best mattress for side sleepers, or best mattress for back pain. And so they are generally arriving at the site where they already have something in their head.

that they've seen these beds at least being talked about and discussed elsewhere or through advertising. And now they're sort of to narrow down that list. And so I think we have people using the site a lot of different ways, you know, but that's generally how people come. And then the journey beyond that, you know, they are now, sometimes they come and just look at one thing and they, they, read the review and they saw the ads already. And now like, okay, yep. I've seen the confirmation. This sounds exactly like what I'm, what I'm looking for. I'm going to buy that.

Or they arrive and they read some of the reviews, comparisons, best stuff, guides that we've written, and they say, all right, I'm not so certain of what I initially thought. And then they're expanding their search before whittling it down to a smaller set. And then lastly, some people just go straight and use our mattress finder quiz tool where they just answer a few questions about their needs, preferences, and budget. That goes straight to me. And then I email them back a personalized recommendation.

And sometimes it's all three of those things. And so I think we try to make the site as usable and accessible and as easy to navigate as possible so that regardless of sort of where you're at in the sort of mattress research, mattress purchase process, we have the tools, the reviews, the content and the resources to support you.

Michael Bernzweig (27:00.027)
So you've just gone over the top in terms of providing every last detail a consumer could need and then some.

Derek (27:06.21)
That's our aim, yeah.

Michael Bernzweig (27:07.737)
I love it, I love it. So if you were looking back over the years and even to this day, is there a handful of tools that you use in your business to get to the final end result of what you're providing to consumers that you just couldn't live without?

Derek (27:28.27)
Yeah, definitely. Certainly, think WordPress is the biggest and the best tool, if you will. And I would just extend that to sort of the WordPress ecosystem. I am definitely not a developer. I know a large amount of HTML and CSS, and I know a little bit of PHP and a little bit of JavaScript. And so I can usually find something that is mostly what I want and then modify it to exactly what I want.

and WordPress just does an amazing job that, again, the, supporting ecosystem of the WordPress plugins and forums and tools and everything out there that allows me to build what I want to build without getting bogged down and having to deal with, you know, a freelance developer or just a more sophisticated, you know, level of, you know, development and building. can just find something that is basically already, you know, halfway to what I need and just massage it to get to.

ultimately what I'm trying to create. So definitely WordPress and the WordPress ecosystem, despite the shakeups in the last six months or so, I still think is the best platform to build on. Beyond that, it maybe seems so simple, so pedestrian, but I mean, Google Sheets is such an unbelievable powerhouse that just in the last, like, I would say two years, we've really started to use it.

Michael Bernzweig (28:49.701)
Right? Yeah.

Derek (28:55.686)
in ways that I could not have even conceived up before. And this is mostly thanks to my wife. mean, she has, you know, helped to get the ball rolling and really allow us to build these. So I think had my wife gone to school to be a programmer, she'd be crushing it. But, but she, she, she taught, you know, high school math and she has a math background. and so they kind of her first, you know, well, I say her first job, she, taught high school for seven years, and then she actually joined me at the agency.

where she helps in the accounts receivable department. Again, kind of like boring work, but work that she was able to then have a real need for Excel and Google Sheets as a method to expedite sort of processes and work more efficiently with data and numbers and just a large quantity of data. So while working at the agency, they had a three person team that became a two person team that became a one person team. All the work stayed the same. And she was the last man standing.

And so she had essentially built a series of Excel tools and macros to automate the functions of these two people that had quit. And so she had all this really actionable experience building these tools and functions and macros and sheets to help manage data and processes more efficiently. And then she was able to slowly help us do that with NAPLAB once she had resigned her position there.

Michael Bernzweig (30:21.905)
There you go. And I'm sure it was a day they won't forget. at the end of the day, I have to say that I'm big on process and procedure in every company that I've owned. I think you really can't scale what you're doing or get to where you want to get to without adding more people unless...

Derek (30:26.67)
you

Michael Bernzweig (30:47.857)
you have the right process and procedure in place on the backend. So it makes a lot of sense. And I would agree with you as simple as it is, Google Sheets and the whole ecosystem around it really adds a ton of value for a lot of companies. And I'll throw in one more, something I think is gonna be as much a paradigm shift for all of us. The internet was probably the biggest shift in all of our lives.

The whole idea of where things went from there was interesting. Obviously, AI, the next major advance. I think the next biggest advance that we're all gonna see, which is happening right now, is AI coding. lot of AI coding, no code, low code, AI coding tools, I think, are going to really take a lot of

organizations by surprise if they're not prepared for it. Because I think what's interesting is I think a lot of organizations, obviously you've got your branding down pat, but a lot of organizations see their code and their tech stack as their competitive mode or competitive advantage. And at the end of the day, with all of these AI coding tools, I don't think that's the case anymore. And I think

branding is even more important to help differentiate your business and everyone's business from one another. And I think it's going to become really apparent to a lot of companies over the next few years. So think that that's important. When you're using automation within your business, what are some of the benefits that you say? Obviously, it's making the processes easier to deliver to your customers. But do you see other

benefits like reduction in errors and things like that or what else he is saying.

Derek (32:48.61)
Yep. Those are the big two. It is faster and it is less error prone. And those two things just scale across our entire business. We don't have a huge team, but we have, I think we're up to nine or 10 employees now. so processes that used to take two and three days now take a day. Processes that used to take me,

half a day to QA and to go through to make sure there's no errors and to fix stuff are now taking me 30 minutes. And so it's allowed us to not only create faster, but create with less errors and just scale more. We could just get more done in the same number of hours. Things that would have taken us three times the amount of hours are significantly cut in half. And so we're just able to create.

more with the same number of hours each day.

Michael Bernzweig (33:46.641)
So we actually, before the episode, took some questions from the audience. And I'd be remiss if I didn't at least ask you one or two. I think one of the biggest question that I saw coming in over and over again, and it's obviously something you've mastered, but maybe you could share a little bit behind the scenes. How do you ensure that your reviews remain unbiased and free from external influence?

Derek (34:12.728)
So this is really the foundation of NAPLAB. it's a fair question and it's a big question because we have to be beyond reproach in this area. So when I was coming up with the sort of idea for our tests and our data, I wanted to remove as much subjectivity and as much potential bias as possible so that we come in, we do our tests, we take our measurements, we take our photos, we take our videos, and then

that data just goes straight into a sheet and the sheet tells us the score and the score tells us essentially what we're going to recommend and what we're not going to recommend. So much of the recommendation is just the numbers and there is essentially a mathematical formula for every score and the inputs from the data side tell us what that score will be and then that score is assigned essentially

a different tier of analysis. we say based on the data, it earned this score and this score is assigned to this type of analysis because we know that this score lines up on the curve with all the other matches. Therefore it's in the top 10 % or it's in the top 50%. And based on that, you know, our recommendations need to follow this particular form. we are insanely structured and rigid in our testing

data collection and editorial processes for the, there's a number of reasons why we do it, but certainly a big one is that we want to not just tell people that we're unbiased, we want to show them and we show them through just an absurd level of objective oriented testing.

Michael Bernzweig (35:55.175)
Sure.

Michael Bernzweig (36:01.287)
And obviously the company has grown over the years, but what is your role like in the year 2025 versus what it was before? And what are some of the other positions within the organization today?

Derek (36:14.744)
So I am founder and editor in chief, but that doesn't really mean a whole lot. I do a little bit of everything and I help everybody do their job better and more efficiently. And so I am still the head tester, still the face on our videos, still the one that is sort of leading the charge there. NapLab is in some ways, it is a mattress testing machine. So we try to test two mattresses each week.

And the process for doing those includes testing, photography, videography, script writing, creating the actual written review, editing that, publishing everything. And so it's way more than one person can handle. And so we have two essentially testers and videographers that work alongside me. And so they are coming in to make sure things are getting filmed on time.

managing the videography process, doing most of the actual testing and data collection, and then the actual sort of data analysis. So they collect the data and then they go back to follow our process to see exactly how does this match the perform based on the data we collected. And that essentially is all sort of prepared for me to then write my final analysis on the mattress using the data.

and using our tools, which helped me basically understand how good or bad a particular bed is. We have my wife, of course, who is sort of the man behind the curtain doing all the real heavy lifting. so she is often just working on sort of the next tool for us. And so she helped build the initial sheets and tools. And right now she's working on basically a Google Sheets tool that is

going to take inputs from the sort of customized analyses that I write and the data to sort programmatically create sort of a single copy paste from Google Sheets into WordPress that's going to then be personalized and customized with all of our data, all the scores, all the customized analysis and our photographs and videos as well. So that again, our editors don't have to manually copy paste these sections and write these sections. So, so much of that would be

Derek (38:38.966)
automatically done. guess the last two major functions we have then, my sister who also works with me and she's been with me since 2017. She is our editor essentially next to me and so all kinds of stuff is coming her way and she's making sure it gets published and correctly positioned and formatted so that we can make sure everything looks beautiful.

And then beyond that, have four video editors that help to try to keep the video machine moving. we have just every person kind of focused on one little segment of really this big content machine.

Michael Bernzweig (39:14.691)
I love it. There's a lot that goes into it.

Michael Bernzweig (39:24.047)
Neat. And I'll wrap up by asking you two things. as far as, you know, obviously you sit in a really unique position and perspective, how have mattresses themselves changed over the years? I mean, I see mattresses coming in boxes now. You never could have envisioned something like that. I also see lots of mattresses that are just...

tremendously cumbersome to move and to get from one place to another. So what are the major transitions you've seen?

Derek (39:57.198)
I mean, if we go back, you know, 20, 25 years, you know, Interspring was still, you know, basically the name of the game. We had Timberpedic then, but, you know, they were still expensive and more of a niche purchase. If we look at kind of the last, you know, 10 years, it's been really the rise of sort of the direct to consumer sort of bed in a box type mattress brands. And so as sort of material technology with respect to coils, foams,

have improved and also the basically the machinery to like compress, roll and then vacuum seal the beds has improved and FedEx UPS, the ability to then, you know, actually ship those beds that are sometimes up to 125, 135 pounds. We have sort of all of these sort of factors coming together that have allowed the direct to consumer mattress brand to create a really high quality product for significantly less

than what a lot the more traditional legacy sort of big mattress brands were previously doing. So, you know, we look back, let's say 2013, you know, let's say less than 1 % of beds are being sold online. Today, you know, most estimates are somewhere around 50%. And that figure is likely to grow over time as, you know, older generations who are less accustomed to purchasing online are, you know,

Michael Bernzweig (41:22.759)
Sure.

Derek (41:23.574)
being replaced by younger generations who are more accustomed to buying things online. I think there's a reasonable expectation that we'll see the number of beds purchased online relative to in-store rise to 60, 65%, maybe more. It's tough to say. I think there is still a purpose and a point for the retail experience. But for so many consumers, they don't care.

their expectations for their masters, they just want something that good. And the idea of having to go into a physical store to pick it out is something they just don't want to deal with.

Michael Bernzweig (42:01.895)
Yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense. And we're mattresses made today, is, you know, versus where they were made in the past.

Derek (42:10.094)
You know, certainly within the US, they're, you know, made in mostly the same places, you know, we still have many of the same factories still still building those factories, you know, look very different today than they did, you know, let's say 1520 years ago. But it's still a lot of the major players are still making bets. There is a, you know, a good chunk of bets that are made in China and made overseas as well. Certainly, you know, when you're looking at

Michael Bernzweig (42:15.45)
Okay.

Derek (42:37.422)
Amazon mattresses and other sort of super budget friendly mattresses any beds sort of inside of $500. The probability that was made overseas goes up. But there is still you know, a lot of you know, consumer preference for beds made in the USA mattress sellers and manufacturers recognize that and so there's still a lot of that manufacturing happening here in the United States. There is a

Michael Bernzweig (43:01.563)
That's really neat and that's encouraging to hear, obviously. It's maybe one of the last American manufacturing happy stories. But have you had a chance to visit some of these factories? And did you kind of come away with some unique perspectives that you didn't expect?

Derek (43:21.036)
Yeah, I've visited a couple. They are really interesting. think one, the size of the larger factories is still sort of, you know, mind boggling. know, these places being, you know, hundreds of thousands of square feet of, you know, warehouse and factory space is not uncommon. So they there is a factory about 30 minutes away from me that has 650,000 square feet of space. is a mind boggling factory. And they do essentially everything there.

Michael Bernzweig (43:43.777)
tremendous.

Derek (43:50.126)
They, you know, quilt their own covers. They pour their own foams. They coil their own springs. And so they're taking, you know, really raw materials, raw inputs and have vertically integrated the entire thing. you know, you can literally start at one end of the factory and watch this bed go step by step by step before it finally is compressed and rolls out the door, you know, a few hours later.

I should say a few hours later, that doesn't really account for the foam curing process. But they're doing everything there. And there are a number of factories just like that elsewhere in the country. where that's not possible, you'll see factories that specialize in foam production, foam is something that is a lot of brands don't do themselves because you can pour so much more foam than you can use. And so you have sort

Michael Bernzweig (44:17.862)
Yeah.

Michael Bernzweig (44:24.347)
very vertically integrated.

Derek (44:44.35)
foam pours that will pour a bunch of different foams that cure them. And then you send these gigantic, what they call buns that are 10, 12 feet high off to the mattress manufacturers. And they cut that up into the individual layers before using that and other components to build their mattress. it's really cool. It's really cool. I hadn't really considered the fact that it is kind of rare to see this sort of manufacturing still done in the US. I think part of that is just the mattresses.

It's a large product, shipping it overseas while feasible for some brands, when you start to make higher end mattresses that are heavier especially, that becomes more difficult to ship overseas and just makes more sense to try to build here if at all possible. So it is really cool that most of the manufacturing is still happening here in the States.

Michael Bernzweig (45:36.187)
That's really neat. And you know, I could honestly see your team taking a road trip across the country and, you know, visiting just a ton of different manufacturers and giving people a peek behind the scenes. think that would be something that could easily go viral. So I think that's pretty exciting if you haven't done that.

Derek (45:57.89)
Yeah, that's a good idea. I'll have to consider that. We do have one video on our YouTube channel where we did an in-depth walkthrough of the local factory I mentioned. So if you're interested in taking a look at least one factory, we've got that up on the site.

Michael Bernzweig (46:12.591)
I love it. Well, I really appreciate the deep dive. mean, I think this was a very unique perspective for a lot of the listeners of consulting spotlight and appreciate you taking the time out for anybody that is new to the channel. We have two other podcasts, career spotlight and software spotlight. If you want to keep up to date, just go to software oasis.com backslash subscribe and we'll leave a link to.

Derek and everyone over at NAP Labs in the show notes for anybody that would like to reach out. But I'm assuming it's the website is just NAPLAB.com. All right. Perfect, perfect. Well, I really appreciate your time today.

Derek (46:51.724)
Yep, that's it. NAPLAB.com.

Derek (46:58.136)
Well, thank you so much for having me. It was an absolute pleasure. Thank you.