Consulting Spotlight

Michael Bernzweig (00:03.196)
Are you ready to unlock the secrets of consulting success? Tired of sifting through endless noise to find actionable insights that actually move the needle?

Welcome to Consulting Spotlight, your weekly deep dive into the transformative world of professional consulting. Your host is Michael Bernzweig, who in 1998 launched Software Oasis as one of the first platforms enabling businesses to download, license, and deploy software instantly across their networks with a single click. Today, Software Oasis has evolved into one of the leading communities where businesses find top consultants across the USA and Canada.

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I'd like to welcome everyone to this week's edition of the Consulting Spotlight. And this is your host, Michael Bernzweig. This week we are joined by Michelle Weinstein. She's actually the founder of the Abundant Accountant. And with that, Michelle, I wanted to welcome you to the Consulting Spotlight.

Michelle (00:27.266)
Thank you so much for having me.

Michael Bernzweig (00:29.444)
Yeah, no, this is really exciting. And I know we have a ton to cover and I can see from some of the questions that have come in from the audience, a lot of other questions out there that hopefully we'll have some time to get to. But the bottom line, I was hoping you could for anyone that may not be familiar with your backstory, your appearance on the shark tank and some of the other notable details in your career trajectory, if you could give everybody a little bit of your

Michelle (00:50.574)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Bernzweig (00:58.982)
background and talk a little bit about the abundance accountant and what you do out there.

Michelle (01:03.938)
Yeah. So basically we'll start with, I'm the founder of the Abundant Accountant and I'm a sales strategist and I help accounting, tax and bookkeeping firm owners and fractional CFO firm owners transform their practices by really putting a stop to trading time for dollars, getting rid of the hourly rate, letting go of overly demanding clients and really getting paid based on your value and your worth.

So with over two decades of sales and entrepreneurial experience, I've helped countless firm owners since 2018 master the art of enrollment of high ticket sales, double their firm revenue, and finally achieve work-life balance that they never thought was possible. And my career basically started after college. I have a degree in finance, and I ended up at Moss Adams in the M &A group.

So I was a financial analyst in that corporate gig just was not for me. And I started seeking alternatives to that typical cubicle life. I was living in Seattle. So I got a part-time job at Nordstrom selling upscale women's clothing and really discovered the passion for customer service, sales, and everything. And it really sparked my love for sales and understanding the process and how people buy.

Michael Bernzweig (01:59.538)
Sure.

Michelle (02:27.994)
And that really led everything to where I'm at today. so followed by, I have a very deep passion for health and fitness. I started teaching outdoor boot camps. I started teaching spin classes on my lunch breaks. just could not get, I couldn't sit in a cubicle anymore. So one day, three years too late, I quit my job as an analyst at Moss Adams and got into mortgages and real estate.

Michael Bernzweig (02:48.786)
Sure.

Michelle (02:56.91)
So I was a loan officer, started learning the mortgage business, and the real estate business was my calling. And that's where really my inner entrepreneur emerged in full force. So for the next few years after that, I was in real estate mortgages, and it was taking actually a toll on my health. I was skipping the gym. I was eating a lot at burrito shops. I was back where I grew up mostly in Arizona.

I knew I wasn't alone in this and I saw that there was the need in the market and I thought, well, how could I make eating healthy easy, simple and convenient? So I took probably the most radical leap in my career and I started a food company. Now I had no experience in food manufacturing. I just literally wanted a personal chef in a package, but there wasn't anything at the time that existed. Yeah, it was, it was dangerous, but I was like, how do you make healthy food quick, easy and on the go? So my passion for health and nutrition,

Michael Bernzweig (03:45.555)
wow, that sounds dangerous.

Michelle (03:55.214)
was created at that time and a company called Fitzy Foods was born. And really what I lacked in experience, I made up in my persistence and my persistence actually got us a retail store. We had several contracts with the local hospital chain. I got into the vitamin shop. They invested over a million dollars in getting fresh prepared meals inside a company that's been doing, know, supplement distribution for eons. I pitched on Shark Tank.

I did not get a deal, but I was actually brutally rejected. But at the same time, that experience really set me up for several big wins. Like I mentioned, the vitamin shop. also got into Costco with our pro team bars and we worked with many professional teams in major league baseball and worked with a ton of the coaches and the NFL, NBA and NHL to support their athletes.

Michael Bernzweig (04:37.938)
Sure.

Michelle (04:48.654)
That time came to an end when the investors did not want to continue investing and supporting the growth of the company. So I was at a crossroads again. And just like the time before, I just kind of looked at, well, what's the failure that's a stepping stone to a new adventure? And I realized that every successful person has many stories of failure to tell. And it sparked this idea, you know, what if entrepreneurs would just talk about the real style?

the real stuff like getting rejected, being told no, times we lost major deals and the days you couldn't make payroll, the lawsuits you endured, whatever it was and I never gave up. So I started a podcast then and I said, well, who do I really want to work with? I remembered my days at Moss Adams and I loved the introverts. I love really smart people. I love the people pleasers and I love those business owners who

offer a high value service like a fractional CFO firm owner or bookkeeping accounting firm owner. And they really want to own their value and they want to embrace and get paid what they're worth. They just weren't taught sales. They didn't have a selling process. They're in their own way. And, you know, I said, I'll, I'll figure it out. And I did. And, you know, I'm living proof that if you stay in the game, success is inevitable.

And that's really the message that I share with every firm owner that I work with today.

Michael Bernzweig (06:16.646)
And you know, it's so interesting. think everyone looks at entrepreneurship and business as a destination, but it's really, you know, a journey of many successes and failures over many years that help you arrive at that final destination. Yeah, no, amazing. And I think we have similar roots in that.

Michelle (06:25.826)
Yeah.

Yep.

Michelle (06:33.015)
It is.

Michelle (06:36.952)
Yep.

Michael Bernzweig (06:44.114)
You know, early on I had that traditional corporate career, like so many. And the one thing I learned was that the corporate world was not for me. And very quickly I started Software Oasis back in 1998, which was the super early days of the internet. And it was really just an idea. And I was a 20 something year old kid that didn't know much, but...

Michelle (06:48.888)
you

Michelle (06:55.148)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle (07:13.699)
haha

Michael Bernzweig (07:13.8)
got lucky and it did happen to have taken off right away, but It's definitely a journey and I will share it was not my first business, you know, I started my first business 14 so but no, it's interesting and as far as that that that I guess what we might call the first, you know major Journey, it sounds like health and fitness and foods. So was that company fit see is that the

Michelle (07:17.622)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle (07:23.943)
Mm-hmm. Nice.

Michelle (07:43.112)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Michael Bernzweig (07:43.91)
Right. So, okay, got it. So that, that, was, really the, the journey that brought you to shark tank. Got it. Okay. And like, if you were to look back, you know, going from that journey to appearing on shark tank and, and getting to where you are today is, is the pitch queen. what, what key lessons would you say you learned along the way from that journey?

Michelle (07:51.894)
Yep, it is.

Michelle (08:13.518)
Well, I think for anybody, especially some of you that own an accounting, CFO, bookkeeping firm, I think a lot of times our minds just go blank. You're sitting with a client, you have no idea what to say, you don't have a plan for your sales call, and it really lets prospects kind of steer the conversation instead of you guiding it. And I think like pitching on Shark Tank, it's the same thing. If you don't

plan and you don't prepare and you don't have your sales pitch in that instance, then you'll never be able to pitch in front of the shark. I like to correlate that to a firm owner. When you think about your sales process, you can have a process on how to do the work. You have a workflow process. Like at Fitzy, I had a manufacturing process. But we need to make sure that

We know how to convert a lead. Otherwise, you're not going to know how to follow up properly. You're not going to know how to take control of a call. And you're just going to get worried and freeze up. And I think a lot of people even pitching that happens. And it's just practice and it's repetition. But ultimately, it's having a plan.

Michael Bernzweig (09:28.634)
Yeah. And you know, it's so interesting. I mean, I think like any niche consulting area, you know, I think of my CPA, you know, and at the end of the day, he's, he, he had been there and done that with one of the big accounting firms, but at the end of the day, went out on his own with 15 or 20 other partners and they started their own firm. And, and you know what? I'll be honest with you. They're, they are fantastic at what they do. And they're the ones that I want advising me.

Michelle (09:55.629)
Yeah.

Michael Bernzweig (09:58.342)
and my family and all of my businesses, but at the end of the day, they're not salespeople. And, you know, and that's okay. They're great at what they do, but it's not their thing. you know, so obviously the process, the procedure, the structure is even more important to that scenario.

Michelle (09:58.573)
Yep.

Michelle (10:05.14)
No, and it's okay because I don't I don't Yeah

Michelle (10:18.484)
It really is important to have a very easy step-by-step process to take charge of your sales calls. You don't want to freak out. You don't want to freeze up. And you also don't want to feel like a pushy car salesman, nor do I want you to. But we need to learn how to demonstrate how we discuss pricing with confidence. How do we make our client experience unique and different from other firms out there in ways that feel really natural instead of like rigid technique.

Michael Bernzweig (10:31.943)
Brian.

Michelle (10:47.252)
or things of discounting or giving low fees and hoping that in the future people will just pay you more. So it's really about learning how to, you know, enroll and close more clients and end the second guessing.

Michael Bernzweig (10:53.05)
Yeah, and obviously.

Michael Bernzweig (11:00.914)
And I guess at the end of the day, finding your North Star and your unique selling proposition, what is it that your firm is all about and how do you differentiate yourself? So for a lot of the firms that you're working with, who do they find are the best referral partners for them in terms of the beginning of their onboarding process to onboard new clients, even before they get to pitching a client?

Michelle (11:07.021)
Yeah.

Michelle (11:12.843)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (11:30.21)
Well, that would be more marketing and I actually don't focus on that. I like to just stay in my lane and focus on the enrollment. I mean, there's so many different things you can do for referrals. It's the conversion because until you learn how to convert, it doesn't matter what BNI groups, what referral partners, who you talk to, because you have to have a system to be able to show.

Michael Bernzweig (11:34.032)
Okay. Sure.

So you're helping them in that, and maybe that's a better, yeah.

Michael Bernzweig (11:52.135)
Yeah.

Michelle (11:54.606)
the value that you bring without having to discount, without having to negotiate prices. So you don't devalue your worth in a way and having it be simple and effortless and automatic. So you can work the hours that you want to work and you can have plenty of time with your family and go on vacation because until you have a system to do that and convert the leads, kind of like having a mousetrap per se.

You don't want to go out to referral partners and stuff. You're going to actually lose a lot of business. I just had a client. I literally just had a client. This happened to her. She was out there getting referral partners and doing lead generation and marketing. And then she was introduced to me. And she literally just told me this yesterday because she had lost $30,000 of missed conversions.

Michael Bernzweig (12:19.517)
Yeah.

Michael Bernzweig (12:24.132)
Yeah, cause you don't have your...

Michelle (12:47.552)
And then she also wasted about four months trying to do networking, get referrals, meet with prospects. And the reason why is because she didn't have a sales system in place. So she does.

Michael Bernzweig (12:59.814)
Yeah. And if you have a leaky bucket, it doesn't matter how much, how much water you put in there, it's all going to fall out the bottom. Yeah.

Michelle (13:04.686)
Exactly. Yeah, no, it's so true. she actually just the other day got two paid diagnostic reviews for $500 each, which in the past she would have done for free. She closed a $9,000 cleanup project on someone's books. And then she also yesterday closed and signed an engagement letter with a client for $10,000 in cleanup with $750 a month.

Michael Bernzweig (13:18.833)
Yeah.

Michelle (13:33.738)
of ongoing bookkeeping and CFO work for the future. So all of that just made up for all her losses. But if she would have kept trying to get referrals and referral partners and leads, she would have had the bleeding continue. And when you create a sales system and a sales process, you can actually stop the bleeding. And that's really what this is about. You have to stop the bleeding, because otherwise, I call it similar to going to Vegas.

Michael Bernzweig (13:37.852)
I love it. Well, you know...

Michelle (14:02.766)
and playing the slot machine versus basically being able to have a sales workflow in your firm. And really what I found is most firm owners think they need more referral partners, they need more referrals, they need to spend money and time on marketing first or spend time networking when they first start a firm or in the beginning stages. When really,

Michael Bernzweig (14:14.055)
love it.

Michelle (14:29.93)
It's always in the future of the challenges around the sales conversation at the core. Otherwise, you're just going to get nickel and dime. You're going to charge low fees. You're going to price incorrectly from day one. And that's exactly what Jessica did. And maybe even worse, do free work for people. So when you're first getting started or even in the future, if you've been doing it for a while and you're wondering why you're at

Michael Bernzweig (14:41.574)
Yeah.

Michelle (14:55.342)
capacity or why you have to have such low fees to just get people in the door without having a proper way to convert the lead you end up, you know Feeling like burnt out and you might as well just go to Vegas and put money on black because you have You can hope that you have a 50 % payout or I call it You can play a game that you have a lot more control over like poker

Michael Bernzweig (15:10.448)
Yeah, yep.

Michelle (15:20.824)
So with a well thought out sales system in place, you know what cards you have in your hand, you'll be able to read the situation and figure out what cards they have in their hand using a proven structure to follow a simple step-by-step process. So it doesn't have to be a gamble anymore. But if you continue to spend money on marketing, or if you keep trying to get referral partners, or you keep trying to go to networking events,

Michael Bernzweig (15:37.576)
love it.

Michelle (15:45.708)
Without the right strategy or blueprint for the sales psychology of the conversation, you will not have a high ROI on those marketing efforts. So that is the difference. Yeah.

Michael Bernzweig (15:55.132)
Yeah. And it's so easy to spend money. mean, you know, that's that there's everyone's got their hand out. And I guess at the end of the day, like a big question, you know, if I were a firm owner listening to this podcast or maybe, you know, a fractional or someone that could use the solutions that you're offering, can you walk me through like a day in the life in terms of what a practice looked like before?

Michelle (16:07.19)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle (16:15.288)
Yep.

Michael Bernzweig (16:23.141)
working with your firm versus the strategy that you're helping to implement and get up and running and what life looked like after.

Michelle (16:33.878)
Yeah, I mean, I can probably just share with you. We'll just stay with Jessica because I've already kind of shared the story with you. Jessica, when she first met me, she's more of a newer firm owner. And I think really the thing that sets her apart from the rest is that prior to working with me in our eight-week sales mastery program, she felt exhausted and defeated.

Michael Bernzweig (16:42.864)
Sure.

Michelle (17:03.638)
and I think many firm owners feel that way. She had even taken beginner organic marketing and was generating those leads like I had shared. But after four months of having sales calls with people, she hadn't signed up any clients. So what she realized is that without a structured sales process, she was just improvising and winging it with every single new lead that she got. So if it was from networking, a B &I meeting,

Michael Bernzweig (17:06.566)
Yeah.

Michelle (17:32.472)
her organic marketing on Facebook, it didn't matter. She wasted four months and missed out on $30,000 of potential revenue. So an instructor actually in her marketing course had done an email introduction to me after recognizing that she was kind of in dire need of sales expertise. But her biggest fear going into this was, my gosh, I already don't have any money. I've already wasted, you know,

this time for months of my life and missed out on 30,000, how can I make an investment of a sizable size of time and money to figure out this piece? Well, this piece is actually the thing that makes you money, because all the other stuff doesn't make you money. And it was a really big decision for her, but she actually ended up putting the investment on a credit card because she wanted to invest in herself and in her business.

Michael Bernzweig (18:16.572)
love it.

Michelle (18:25.906)
and for the future of her firm knowing that she wanted to master the sales workflow, which was the ingredient she was actually missing. And she didn't want to go get a job, go to corporate, or do any of that. She was committed to her firm. And so some of the key, I would say, transformational takeaways that she shared with me was that she realized her true worth. That was the pivotal moment. She learned how to focus on pain points.

for her clients versus talking like I call account in ease, where you get buried in the details of how and all that with the technical accounting, fractional CFO, bookkeeping jargon. have to eliminate that. And she learned how to get all the documents and access to people's QuickBooks or financial statements before having a sales meeting. And that was really the game changer for her. And she was so happy that she's now equipped.

because she literally just shared this on Facebook with me when I read you earlier. She has a step-by-step sales process to follow. She has the tools in place. She actually has a sales workflow, a sales binder that she can refer to whenever she needs it. And like anything, there is a learning curve, and it's going to take time, practice, and repetition. But she knows she's on her way, and now she has money in her bank that proves that she's on her way. And she's really excited.

Michael Bernzweig (19:53.552)
You know, and it's, it's, yeah, it's so amazing. And then, and what's really eyeopening to me is it sounds like the solution that you're providing to your clients is the ideal compliment to the solution that we're providing to our community here at Software Oasis. Our, our platform is really a structured process for consulting firms, niche consulting firms.

Michelle (19:55.148)
You know?

Michelle (20:12.61)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle (20:22.784)
Mm-hmm. New clients, that would step two, once they get paid. Yeah.

Michael Bernzweig (20:23.048)
to onboard new clients via strategic. Yeah. I have strategic partnerships, you know, once they have that process down. So my guess is that we, have a lot of clients that could use exactly what you're offering. And what's interesting to me, I actually just had a, new client come aboard a few weeks ago. And he said to me, Michael, said, you know, I have to tell you this, this was before we started. said, I'm a little skeptical. He said, we.

spent about $60,000 and several months with traditional lead generation. And you know how many clients we onboarded? None. And he said to me, I've been on your platform for literally weeks and you've introduced us to more perfect referral partners. And we've already onboarded some clients that we didn't do.

Michelle (21:03.114)
Mm-hmm, yep, exactly.

Michelle (21:10.604)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Bernzweig (21:19.406)
over several months that we were working with this other firm. So it's exactly that. It's a matter of having the right process, the right procedure, the right structure in place on all ends. know, traditional...

Michelle (21:32.608)
Yeah, and if anyone here who's listening owns a fractional CFO, bookkeeping firm, tax or accounting firm, you can book a call with me and my team at theabundantcall.com and we will show you exactly how to take back control of every sales conversation. How do you close high quality, high paying clients for your firm specific to you and establish yourself as the premium?

Michael Bernzweig (21:55.248)
And absolutely. Yeah. And what we're going to do, we'll leave obviously a link in the show notes for anybody that would like to, to reach out and all of that. And, so I guess the other part of it, I was hoping, you know, with the, the rise of AI automation and all of that in, in accounting, every firm out there is being bombarded by so many different

Michelle (22:02.296)
Okay.

Michael Bernzweig (22:23.528)
approaches and strategies and things coming at them every day. What's your take on AI and accounting?

Michelle (22:33.56)
Well, I think AI is a great tool. I think it'll take over some basic compliance stuff. And what it won't take over is human interaction. It won't take over the art of enrollment. It won't take over being able to take control of a sales conversation. It won't take over how to close more high paying clients. It won't take over that actual art. It is an art to learn.

You know, I can get that AI probably is, you know, creating stress and anxiety in most people, but you have to really be able to focus your firm on the higher value services. Advisory services is not going to be taken over from AI. And if it is, it'll be not probably in our lifetime. But it's really about how you have that financial freedom and being able to create the practice in the firm.

Michael Bernzweig (23:21.202)
Yeah.

Michelle (23:28.526)
that drives revenue because AI won't drive revenue. It can maybe do a tax return, but it's not going to help somebody with multiple businesses and all of that. You have to be able to understand how to communicate your value, how to have a formula of commanding your true value and how to get paid your worth, how to double your fees, maybe triple your fees and come

without being pushy or salesy. And no AI can do any of that.

Michael Bernzweig (24:03.046)
And I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you this because obviously in preparing for the episode, it was something I noted and I've seen the question come in from a lot of audience listeners. know, one of the keys that you've mentioned time and time again is the importance of value-based pricing for accounting firms. How do you help accountants transition from the

Michelle (24:25.368)
Yep.

Michael Bernzweig (24:31.912)
concept of hourly billing to billing based on value delivered.

Michelle (24:38.208)
Yeah, well, and that's a great question. I think a lot of that is going to be unique and custom to each of you because some of you might be charging hourly, some of you might be doing a retainer. But really, if you think about what you do, you're solving a problem and you have a solution to offer. So it's like the bigger the problem they have, the bigger solution that you deliver, the more fees you can charge. So.

We discussed that, though, on our one-on-one calls that you can go to theabundantcall.com and book a call with me and my team, because I think it's really important to have an automatic way to think about your pricing. How can you even double or triple your pricing? mean, just like Jessica just did, she used to do a diagnostic for free. She would just look at that stuff for clients, and now she's charging $500 because that's just what makes her happy. So I think the real problem is that

Firm owners don't have a system. They don't have a system for working with ideal clients. They don't have a system to maximize revenue using value pricing. And most of you want to gain back your freedom. And in order to gain back your freedom, you need to have a sales workflow system to grow your firm so you can enjoy your work and your family without working long hours and having to be stressed out all the time.

Michael Bernzweig (25:57.698)
And I guess that leads to a really great question. So should an accounting firm, you know, let's, let's say a mid-sized accounting firm, obviously a solopreneur is different, but should a mid-sized accounting firm have separate responsibilities for, you know, partners and, and accountants versus the whole sales process? Should it be a separate process? Because

Do you want to have your highest paid individuals doing that client onboarding or are they just part of the process?

Michelle (26:34.612)
It really depends. And there's some people we've worked with that have their one man show. There's others that are working with two or three partners than a firm, or maybe you have an admin or an assistant. And I think it really just comes down to what works for you to convert the most leads into clients so you can make yourself free to do whatever you want when you want.

and you don't miss any more conversions. You never under price and you can hire someone for a very high salary to take off the workload off your shoulders. So you can save money for retirement, go on nice trips and all that. So I think it's really customized to each person on how do you want to do the onboarding in your firm versus the person who's doing the enrollment and getting the business in the door. And it might be the same person or it might be

Michael Bernzweig (27:11.409)
And I...

Michael Bernzweig (27:17.551)
Yeah.

Michelle (27:29.066)
a combination, but either way, we have to think about what it works for you. But the only way you lose is by not taking action and doing something different. So if something's not working, my recommendation would be to try something different. And if you need help figuring out what that is, you can go to theabundantcall.com. We can find a spot that works for you and have a strategy call to figure out what is the best way. Should you be doing the sales? Should you and a teammate be doing it?

We've worked with a lot of people where two firm owners work the sales process and create that workflow. And then both of them have the education around it because bringing in the money in the door is the only thing that your top line revenue on your P &L stands for. So if you don't have that piece down, then you can't pay expenses and rent and have a great team and all that stuff. So it all starts with top line revenue.

Michael Bernzweig (28:21.02)
So what are the, yeah, what are the other types of professional services where your process and strategy is a great fit, just like accounting?

Michelle (28:33.102)
Anywhere. If you have a business, you need top line revenue. I only work with fractional CFOs, bookkeeping firm owners, accounting firm owners, and tax firm owners. But this would

Michael Bernzweig (28:34.344)
Okay.

Michael Bernzweig (28:44.23)
Okay. So specifically in that area and one other, you know, question that, that, that I saw come up and, and I guess I'll ask you because it's, it's your world. at the end of the day for a lot of niche consulting firms, you know, let's face it, if you can do whatever it is that you're doing sitting in front of a computer, someone can do that same thing somewhere else with a much lower cost of, doing business. Do you see.

Michelle (29:05.272)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Bernzweig (29:13.978)
international firms, you know, chipping into this specific market.

Michelle (29:20.012)
Yeah, I definitely see some of my clients might outsource some of the actual work being done, but they're not outsourcing the client experience, any of the client interactions. If it's to input data on a tax return or input and download statements onto someone's QuickBooks or maybe read and collect data on PNLs, you got to think about you're like the doctor.

So if you're the doctor performing surgery, you're not going to outsource that to another country. So think about, so your admin can be outsourced, your email, maybe some of the basic work. But if you want to get paid top dollar, and you want to get paid your worth, and you want to attract and close high quality, high paying clients, you need to establish yourself as a premium.

Michael Bernzweig (29:51.13)
Yeah, and that makes a lot of great sense because...

Yeah.

Michael Bernzweig (30:11.558)
Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense. as we're wrapping up, I just wanted to understand from your perspective, because obviously you have a very unique vantage point, looking ahead over the next several years in this segment of the market, how do you believe accounting services will need to be sold over the next few years?

Michelle (30:36.046)
I think they're just going to need to be sold the way I'm teaching people. And I think as a collective, if the industry wants to increase their revenue and take more vacations and get paid their worth and not work 14, 18 hour days, not be put up against deadlines and actually for CFO services charge 5, 10, 20, $30,000 a month depending on the business size, as a collective, the accounting tax, the bookkeeping world,

and firm owners need to get on board with charging more higher fees. They need to change as a collective and as a whole. And like I mentioned earlier, if you don't take any action, then you're still going to get tire kickers. You're going to get people asking you for discounts. You're going to continue feeling like you're losing money. And you want to have valuable clients instead. And you want to receive fees in advance.

Michael Bernzweig (31:31.72)
Michelle. Yeah, that was really a great deep dive. And I very much appreciate you joining and sharing with us from, from your home base there in San Diego, Michelle Weinstein of the abundant accountant. Thank you so much for joining us. We will leave a link in the show notes for anybody that would like to reach out as always, be sure to listen to our other podcasts. The

Michelle (31:41.09)
Thank you.

Michael Bernzweig (31:59.986)
consulting spotlight that you're listening to, the software spotlight and the career spotlight for tech careers. Be sure to subscribe to our bi-weekly newsletter at softwareoasis.com backslash subscribe. So once again, Michelle, thank you so much for joining us today.

Michelle (32:07.085)
Mm-hmm.

Michelle (32:18.84)
Thank you so much for having me. I look forward to speaking to some of the firm owners. And I also have a podcast for firm owners. If you want to listen to it, it's called the Abundant Accountant Podcast. Yeah. OK, cool.

Michael Bernzweig (32:31.137)
fun fun we'll leave that in the show notes as well